2015年3月24日，我们很荣幸地欢迎访问学者教授彼得Mandler到上外松江校区，并分享了他关于英国高等教育的讲座。
OnMarch 24th,2015, we were very honored to welcome visiting scholar ProfessorPeter Mandler to the Songjiang campus of SISU and invite him to givea lecture on British higher education.
Prof.Mandler was born in the USA in 1958, educated at Oxford and HarvardUniversities, and has taught in Britain since 1991 and in Cambridgesince 2001, where he is now Professor of Modern Cultural History atthe University of Cambridge and Bailey College Lecturer in History atGonville and Caius College. Currently as the president of RoyalHistory Society in Britain, he has published a lot of books andplayed an active role in both the academic and practical sphere ofhistory studies. Before the lecture started, we had a 40-miniteinterview with Prof. Mandler, during which time he talked about arange of issues concerning British higher education and theimportance of history studies. The interview is recorded andsummarized as follow:
MoreCommunication between science and humanity subjects
Question:How do you think of the conflict between sciences andthe humanities pointed out by C.W. Snow in his speech The TwoCultures? How do you evaluate the significance of Humanisticeducation?
Prof.Mandler: C.W. Snow made his lecture TheTwo Cultures inmy own university Cambridge in the late 1950. It was the course ofcold war and the period of rapid development outside the EU. He was ascientist. I think his true message was the need for science in themodern world. But the message that he claimed to be fending was thatscience and humanity should talk to each other. There were 2different stories going on in at the same time, one was the argumentfor science, another was the argument simply for interaction betweenscience and humanities. The second argument is something I think wecan all sympathetic with. Science needs to know about the humanities,and people in humanities need to know about science. The firstargument, I don’t feel so sympathetic with, because I think it’snot true that science is the only key to unlocking the modern world.In my lecture this evening I will show how, in the British at leaststudents in Britain chose to study humanities instead of scienceevent though people like C.W. Snow told them to study science.
Question:As far as I know, I came across with a lot of scholars in humanities;many of them had a background of science. For example, they may havean undergraduate degree of chemistry, biography but then shift toliterature. Do you think that science may contribute to their careereven if they are not doing relevant things?
Prof.Mandler: I have to say I can think of very many scholars inhumanities that I know who started out of science. I think we allbeen learning a wide variety of subjects. The debate is about how toorganize undergraduate education. Whether you follow the Americanmodel where you don’t specialize, do a wide range of subjects untilthe very end of your undergraduate years. Whether you follow theBritish model, you specialize early, even before you go to theuniversity. Usually the British students at 16 have to choose art orscience. Each of the system has advantages. The board Americaneducation exposes you to wide ranges of subjects, it brings togetherthe two cultures, and leads open until later the choice about whatkind of person you want to be. But the British system allows you tohave a very intense, high level understanding of one subject that Ibelieve develop the power of mind. I’m American by origin but mychildren grew up in Britain, when they were coming up to theuniversity, I gave them the choice, you can go to America and do theboard education and you can go to Britain and do one subject. Theyboth chose the Britain way and do one subject. But if they had gonethe other way I would’ve been equally happy. You can’t have bothways.
Criteriafor a real modern university
Question:Inhisarticle The Idea of a University,London,J.H. Newman expressed the philosophy of higher education inBritain.In your opinion, what is your idea of a real modern university?
Prof.Mandler: There are different kinds of university, you don’t want tohave just one model, but for me, the ideal university is one whichcovers all the humanities, social sciences and all subjects, has agood balance between research and teaching, the main purpose of theuniversity is to develop understanding, deep and board understanding;and to equip young people with independent minds, and help them findtheir own special strength and weakness, to help them develop thechosen being. That’s not very different from what JH Newman said150 years ago, except for Newman it was for the glory of god, becausehe was a Catholic. And in the modern university, generally speaking,universities function not for god or even for country, but forknowledge.
History’sPlace in Today’s Britain
Question:Asis known to all, British people attach much importance to the studyof its history. The government often organizes large-scale shows inwhich a great number of actors will replay historic events. Could youtell us about the importance of history education in Humanisticeducation?
Prof.Manler: I think that because Britain is an old country like China,and because it has conserved a lot of historical buildings, it has amonarchy, an ancient parliament; I think that people assumed thatBritish have a special relationship to their history. I’m not sureif that is true. I mean, history is a popular subject but notoverwhelmingly popular. I don’t think the government cares muchabout history, I think the government, like your government, isconstantly preaching the virtues of science and technology, and itsprincipally concern is economic growth and science competition. Inthe year 2000, in London, as a tourist attraction, to symbolize thenew millennium, they put into it all sort of exhibitions to representmodern Britain. That expressed how politicians actually feel aboutBritain. The kind of history the politician cares about is their ownhistory, they like the history of the parliament, their own politicalparties, but not really interested in the wider horizon, the academicrange of the history. I think history is in a healthy state inBritain, but not because of politicians.
Question:So you mean that British people are more interested into the study ofhistory compared with the government?
Prof.Mandler: Ithink so, but not overwhelmingly. I think history plays its rolebetter in having a balanced presence in its culture. So I think as Isaid before, there is a myth that lots people outside Britain have,which is that British have unique attachment to their history. TheAmericans think that the British think nothing except for theirhistory. That is because the Americans are very conscious that theyhave a very short history, they don’t have a monarchy, theirlegislatures are only 200 years old, so when they come in at look atthe history, they think it is everywhere. But if you live in Britain,it’s all around you and you may not pay much attention to it. So Ithink it has its place, but I don’t think there is anythingparticularly special about Britain and its history. When people sayOh British is an old country, every country is old; people have livedin every parts of the world for millions of years now, it’s justfor certain reasons having to do with being an island, with littlemore history around, something have been preserved, but again inrecent times the 1970s, there was a spirit in Shanghai of putting upnew buildings, these things change from generations to generations.:
“Historyis important, but it cannot be used to predict the future”
Prof.Mandler: I’m not a patriot for history, I don’t think history isthe most important subject; it’s one of the humanistic subjects, ithappens to be the one that a lot of young people are attracted tobecause it’s romantic, because they choose something they can’tget from daily life, sometimes because it gives them the sense ofidentity, sometimes I think misguidingly they think that if theystudy the past they’ll predict the future. I don’t think it worksthat way. For me there are many ways to understand what it is to behuman, my parents were psychologists, the study the working of themind, that’s one way, there are many great achievement of humanity,literature, art, religion, you can study those in literature studies,art history, religion studies, and history is just another one ofthose ways of working out how humans can be, and it gives morealternatives of how humans can be because you have hold the past. Isaid something more patriotic about history; I do think all thehumanity principles are important; I wouldn’t want to say oneagainst another. It’s not a competition.
Question:I think no matter what you are doing, learning history is alwaysimportant, like there in SISU, we have the Centre for BritishStudies, we do country and area studies. What do you think is therelationship between history studies and the country/area studies?
Prof.Mandler: Icertainly agree with you. The history can enhance the study of anyother subject. History and literature work very well together,socialology and economy work very well. So I do think history willplay a central role in any area studies. Again, if you try to workout what makes a society function, you don’t want to look at theway it is now, you want to see how it is been many periods of thepast. I think the danger has been that people turn to history to findout some origins, some points which everything begins and out ofwhich everything boomed. But I don’t think history works that way.I think humans are much more changeable. They started out one way andend up another way. You learn about the difference, not just a singleline of development.
Question:So you don’tbelieve in linear development, like what Social Darwinism says?
Prof.Mandler: Idon’t believe in linear development. It’s very interesting thatyou mentioned that, because of course even Darwin didn’t believe insocial Darwinism. Darwin had an idea that human development isbranching, but Social Darwinism misinterpreted Darwin thatcompetition entorted one inevitable development. Darwin himself washorrified by that. If you look at his writings, he actually hassketches, showing the development in a tree like structure. There arepeople now who study evolutionary biology, their history in the 20thcentury. When I was young, when you went to the museum, you saw thedevelopment of mankind, from monkey to human, and there was a line.And the development of the horse, the monkey, the elephant, that’sthe way development was taught in the 20thcentury, always ending up to what we are today, one line, you becomemore horselike, more human, but that’s not the way the biologyworks. You get all sorts of the line, some of them dying, some ofthem live. I think history is the same way.
Growinginterest in the history of higher education:
Question:It came to our notice that you have always been interest inthe history of education, especially the interdynamic factor betweenBritish higher education and the society since Victorian times. Couldyou tell us why you are so interested?
Prof.Mandler said he had only been interested in it in the last 5 years orso, for he began to play more of a role in educational policy when hebecomes active in the Royal History Society (RHS) “About 15 yearsago I was secretary and 7 years ago I was vice-president, and my jobas vice-president was responsible for educational policy. I spent alot of time interacting with government and funding bodies, media andother historical bodies. I thought it would be interesting to bringmy own research and my policy to work together. Education history hasbeen a weak spot in British history in general. But recently peopleare coming to realize that education has been an extremely importantpart of especially 21 century history.”
RHS:an active role to play in educational and social policy making.
Question:As the president of the Royal Historical Society, what have you doneto give an impetus to history studies?
Prof.Mandler: “We’ve done a lot. We have been working very close withthe government on school curriculums to make it represent the latestthinking in historical studies, and also to broaden and globalizeit.” According to Prof. Mandler, curriculum in British school hadbeen very narrowly focused on British history and history of the 20thcentury. “Last 10 years, if you were English history studentbetween the age of 11 and 18, you could study nothing but Stalin, Maoand Hitler. That seems to us a very narrow history. We want to exposeyoung people to the history of the whole world, including China.”In its effort to do so, the RHS have been encouraging the governmentto offer more pre-modern history, going back as far as middle-age oreven ancient world, by doing which they can make history morerepresentative, and more interesting to more people. “We are alsoencouraging young people to study history in the University andpost-graduate level.”
Inpractice, the RHS make their voice heard by talking to MPs, ministersand other civil servants. They send written submissions toconsultative exercise set up by government commission. “We alsointervene on issues relating to the preservation of archives, freedomof information, more open access of the scholarly world to thegeneral public for free, which is an important movement now. Besides,we often advice on the preservation of historical buildings. ”
Historystudy: educating people and training the brain
Whatis the benefit of history studies? Prof. Mandler gives his opinion onsocial and individual levels. For society as a whole, his thinks thathistory is educational. “It tells you what human beings can be andwhat they have been. And it gives you a richer and deeperunderstanding of the world that we’ve made.” However, he doesn’tbelieve that history has to teach lessons. “…there’s nolong-term logic. You can’t say here we were in 1800s, here we werein 1900s and here we were in 2000, and that’s what we will be in2100s. It doesn’t work that way. If the history tells you onething, it’s the humans are very changeable. It’s very hard topredict the future. You can learn as best as you can about the pastto reveal the best clues about what is going to happen next. But Iwouldn’t go beyond that. Of course policy makers would not like tohear that. They want certainty about what exactly is going tohappen.”
Forindividual development, Prof. Mandler recognizes the cultivating ofimagination and comprehensive thinking: “One of the great thingsabout studying the past is that the evidence is always incomplete. Itrequires the act of imagination to put the fragmentary materials wehave to make the most possible story. And you rely on your evidence.You have to go and find the evidence to show that you have somereason for your interpretation. It’s a nice balance betweenevidence and imagination, which is really good for the brains. That’swhy I think people with historical training are very successful atall sorts of careers. Because they got the imagination that they canapply it in almost any subject.”
Greatthinkers: “We need both philosophy and empiricism”
Question:Thereare some scholars criticizing the Anglo-American higher education asfocusing more on analysis and pragmatic approach, but paying lessattention to synthesis and grand subject studies, just like theAnglo-American philosophy. They say that’s why great thinkers arerarely seen in the British and American academia. What’s youropinion on this opinon?
Whenthis is asked, Prof. Mandler calls for the need to clarify thedefinition of “great thinkers”. If “great tinkers” refers tothose well-known philosophers, he admits that Anglo-Americantradition is less philosophical than the French or German. However,he doesn’t agree that British and American cultures produce nogreat thinkers. “I think the grandest sympathy, like Marx, Freudand Adam Smith (British) tend to fall into that trap that we werediscussing earlier, isolating one or two factors and saying they arethe things that are really important and determine everything else.It might be sex, class struggle or individual economic achievement.Sometimes that helps us think, but I wouldn’t say those are theonly qualifications for great thinkers. And I would say the followersof those great thinkers tend to be overwhelmed by the power of thatone idea, and they apply it very mechanically, rather foolishly andlead humanity on false path. What you need are people who can see themany sides of humanity. And I think the Anglo-American tradition isgood at that.
Currenttrends in the study of world history:
Question:Whatare the latest trends in the current studies of the world history?How does the Faculty of History at Cambridge adapt to thisdevelopment?
Prof.Mandler: “This is hard to answer because history is diverse. Butthere is a growing interest in the history of the world. I do notmean global history. Global history assumes that the world is onesubject. Where I think we should be going is understanding thedifferent parts of the world separately, and then how they interact.Another trend, according to him, is trans-national history, whichmeans interaction between parts of the world, like intellectual andcommercial exchanges. There’s also a lot of interest ininternational history, meaning the growth of international structureslike in the 19thcentury the peace movement, and in the 20thcentury the League of Nations or the United Nations. “it’simportant to know how people in different countries make structure tolearn from each other and to communicate with each other.”
AtCambridge, Prof. Mandler says they are particularly interested in thematerial culture—objects and things. “There’s a much closerinvolvement between historians and museums, between historians andarcheologists. It’s really important to get an understanding ofobjects themselves and bring that into the historical structure.”
Adviceto young people in China: follow your nose and develop the power ofmind.
Inthe end of the interview, we ask Prof. Mandler to say something tothe new generation of Chinese young students. “Follow yourinterests!” he said without hesitation. “Don’t let other peopletell you what you should be interested in. I don’t just mean thegovernment. I mean your parents and your teachers. You got to workout what really motivates you and where your own imagination is best.Be exposed and go very deeply into the things that interest you themost and get a really full understanding of them. Don’t worry toomuch about what it is or whether you will make money in the future,because if you develop your powers of mind you can do lots ofdifferent things. That is a lesson that make sense in Britain andAmerican. I don’t know whether it can equally make sense in China.But from my perspective that’s the most important thing--followyour own nose.”
ByGuan Yiran and Liu Wenxuan, School of English Studies, SHISU
